posted 11-26-2003 11:20 AM              

The chinese have thier own 3000 odd year cultural history that powerfully influences the look and feel of any design produced there. The Japanese are the same way. Thier culture (though strongly influenced by American culture), is still substantially different, and that influences the design they produce. Take a look at the designs of the late sixties Japanese import cars. Very odd and different than what was the American norm at the time. The design of these vehicles set the tone for American cars when the design offices were moved from Tokyo to California.

Design is a culturally sensitive profession that cannot be easily moved offshore by ANY nation, just because we can telecommute (though I,m sure that some companies will try it). And I do not believe that a couple of years of study can immerse an individual sufficiently in a culture to truly understand the innate design idioms specific to that culture.

As to the 200,000 ID ers needed by China. That will be for thier OWN growing middle class. North America with about 300 million has about 50,000 id personel. China with about 4 times the population will need about 4 times the personel. China is experiencing right now what this country (USA) experienced about 100 years ago, with a mass migartion to urban from rural to cash in on the growth of the standard of living. The designers are to help provide that standard of living.

America's biggest export has always been idea's. Idea's about government, ways of living, mass production, pop culture, etc.
ID is just as much an idea (and therefore an export)as it is a specific product, and will require American designers to produce American design. European designers to produce truly European design.

posted 11-26-2003 01:06 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by dubmonkey:
oldguy,
On the whole I'd agree with your statement about design being culturally based, but here is where America might have created their own achilles heel. Their exportation of culture has resulted in a type of globalism of 'taste'and design esthetic.
I mean you can find gap, disney and starbucks stuff all over the world, (they even play the same in store soundtracks).
sure there will be local variations (teriyaki burger, mcpoutine, green tea iced frappucino etc)but generally the designs, are quite generic with minor variations in demographic specifications (ie, sizes)
Good design is somewhat universal and market whims can be easily accounted for. (quick example the reason North America didn't have the svelte micro sized walkmans was that the market seemed to show a preference for the bulky "sports" style ones)
I'm a designer myself but I don't see why our job couldn't be done by anyone else. Our only 'edge' would be on domestic fashion since the mechanics of design (manufacturability, materials, ergonomics, price point, life cycle)could be done by the in house marketing dept and a foreign design/manufacturing company.

But with these parasitic cool hunters, even our edge fashion wise is probably minimal.

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All three of your examples are ideas created here in the US.

The fact is that the US is the global tastemaker. Sure we import a few trends, but by and large, we're creating, not importing.

posted 11-26-2003 01:57 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Cyaxares:

All three of your examples are ideas created here in the US.
The fact is that the US is the global tastemaker. Sure we import a few trends, but by and large, we're creating, not importing. I don't see this changing anytime soon. Nor do I see China or India suddenly becoming a strong competitive source of this type of cultural creation just because they're pumping out design grads and US firms are outsourcing labor there.

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Considering the US as THE global tastemaker is a bit closeminded.
Besides Mac products, what part of new industrial design is particularily cultural. Pretty much all of the best design is coming out of places other than the US. 'Best' being a subjective term but
I mean when you think of designer electronic goods, you think Japan or Europe,
Fashion: Europe (Paris/Milan),
Automobiles: europe or Japan,
stationary products (pens etc) Europe or Japan.
It seems design-wise that the US is only forefront in terms of entertainment and defense/offence.

I must add that, as mentioned above in this thread, American companies don't care about culture unless it is in the interest of their bottom line. If they are able to sell something made elsewhere and make a bigger profit they will. And in this case protectionism won't be an issue since they are deliberately doing the outsourcing themselves.

posted 12-04-2003 01:55 PM              

Can't blame Cyaxares for hoping to protect his/her turf for posterity but in reality modern product design is a perfectly expendable, mobile type of service that has far more to do with the designer's inherent personal skills and experience than with his geographic location or specific culture.

As a matter of fact, when you consider it, the very best design always seems so obvious it hints at no particular cultural background or country of origin once it's done. And that's the beauty of it.

Business and industry have known all this for long. Rest assured that if relatively better paid, known and respected services such as IT and engineering traveled so well to lower-wage markets, design in all its forms will surely follow if the talent pool is there.

posted 12-04-2003 09:21 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Wrong!:
oldguy, we can only wish product design today was so culturally-based as you think. Truth is, from the Czech Republic through NYC to Singapore and Buenos Aires, design today speaks a uniform globalized language and I think you'd be hard put looking at most consumer products on shelves now to guess their design country of origin. I know schools used to teach how design is or should be an expression of local culture and - to some extent - it is naturally so, yet products must be functional above all and function is similarly interpreted worldwide. The little "cultural" input left once a product is properly engineered does not make it so unique that only specific designers in a specific location could have accomplished the task.

Can't blame Cyaxares for hoping to protect his/her turf for posterity but in reality modern product design is a perfectly expendable, mobile type of service that has far more to do with the designer's inherent personal skills and experience than with his geographic location or specific culture.

As a matter of fact, when you consider it, the very best design always seems so obvious it hints at no particular cultural background or country of origin once it's done. And that's the beauty of it.

Business and industry have known all this for long. Rest assured that if relatively better paid, known and respected services such as IT and engineering traveled so well to lower-wage markets, design in all its forms will surely follow if the talent pool is there.

It's basic math, people, get over it and stop dreaming US "cultural" influence will always be what it is today.

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See that's the thing... I believe that designers have something in them that can't be commoditized: Talent.

For the most part, the typical "knowledge-worker" can be taught, but we all know that designers are born, not made. Environment plays a huge part in the realization of that talent--witnessed in the fact that most designers tend to come from priveledged consumer-oriented environments.

posted 12-04-2003 09:35 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Cyaxares:
See that's the thing... I believe that designers have something in them that can't be commoditized: Talent.

For the most part, the typical "knowledge-worker" can be taught, but we all know that designers are born, not made. Environment plays a huge part in the realization of that talent--witnessed in the fact that most designers tend to come from priveledged consumer-oriented environments.

ie. Living in a cave isn't going to help you design successful products.

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posted 12-05-2003 10:14 AM              

ie. Living in a cave isn't going to help you design successful products."

Cyaxares, if you weren't so arrogant and full of hot air maybe you could see past your nose. There's no proof anywhere poorer countries produce fewer "born" designers per capita. And the absurdly ridiculous (and pompous) notion good product designers necessarily come from rich material environments would have been totally laughable were it not indicative of the pathetic and undeserved complex of superiority afflicting ID.

If necessity is the mother of invention then by far the most innovative (not decorative) design traditionally comes from designers who, at least at some point in their lives, experienced serious adversity, poverty and lack of resources. Consider that some of today's top Italian designers were children in postwar Italy, which was an economic basket case, to put it mildly, for decades after WWII. The same can be said for many big names in design, whether American, Japanese or Scandinavian, who came from very modest backgrounds that instilled them with a high lifelong sensibility, empathy and respect for the material needs of others. Wealth does not necessarily breed talent, ideas or even more wealth, but it most often breeds the excess, waste and irrelevance found in most "designed" products sold nowadays. A true sense of cultural belonging and continuity is far more meaningful in shaping a designer's vision than the mere abundance of products which, in any case, exists everywhere on the planet now. An original mind will work anywhere, a lazy and rather conventional one indeed needs constant stimulus from the work of others to perform.

Where emerging economies worldwide are still disadvantaged today is mostly in the access to information, latest technologies and facilities in general but if you've traveled the world and seen what comes out of engineering, design, and architecture schools from Russia to South America, you'd be stunned by the amount of natural talent, perseverance and consistent quality of work coming out of there.

Maybe you should check out grad shows and portfolios from countries not traditionally known as design hotbeds. At the very least these people are not snobs like you and that alone makes it easier for manufacturers to do business there. Your last sentence said it all.

posted 12-05-2003 11:05 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by How ludicrous:
"...designers are born, not made. Environment plays a huge part in the realization of that talent--witnessed in the fact that most designers tend to come from priveledged consumer-oriented environments.

ie. Living in a cave isn't going to help you design successful products."

Cyaxares, if you weren't so arrogant and full of hot air maybe you could see past your nose. There's no proof anywhere poorer countries produce fewer "born" designers per capita. And the absurdly ridiculous (and pompous) notion good product designers necessarily come from rich material environments would have been totally laughable were it not indicative of the pathetic and undeserved complex of superiority afflicting ID.

If necessity is the mother of invention then by far the most innovative (not decorative) design traditionally comes from designers who, at least at some point in their lives, experienced serious adversity, poverty and lack of resources. Consider that some of today's top Italian designers were children in postwar Italy, which was an economic basket case, to put it mildly, for decades after WWII. The same can be said for many big names in design, whether American, Japanese or Scandinavian, who came from very modest backgrounds that instilled them with a high lifelong sensibility, empathy and respect for the material needs of others. Wealth does not necessarily breed talent, ideas or even more wealth, but it most often breeds the excess, waste and irrelevance found in most "designed" products sold nowadays. A true sense of cultural belonging and continuity is far more meaningful in shaping a designer's vision than the mere abundance of products which, in any case, exists everywhere on the planet now. An original mind will work anywhere, a lazy and rather conventional one indeed needs constant stimulus from the work of others to perform.

Where emerging economies worldwide are still disadvantaged today is mostly in the access to information, latest technologies and facilities in general but if you've traveled the world and seen what comes out of engineering, design, and architecture schools from Russia to South America, you'd be stunned by the amount of natural talent, perseverance and consistent quality of work coming out of there.

Maybe you should check out grad shows and portfolios from countries not traditionally known as design hotbeds. At the very least these people are not snobs like you and that alone makes it easier for manufacturers to do business there. Your last sentence said it all.

Hopefully you speak for a minority.

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posted 12-05-2003 11:06 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by How ludicrous:
"...designers are born, not made. Environment plays a huge part in the realization of that talent--witnessed in the fact that most designers tend to come from priveledged consumer-oriented environments.

ie. Living in a cave isn't going to help you design successful products."

Cyaxares, if you weren't so arrogant and full of hot air maybe you could see past your nose. There's no proof anywhere poorer countries produce fewer "born" designers per capita. And the absurdly ridiculous (and pompous) notion good product designers necessarily come from rich material environments would have been totally laughable were it not indicative of the pathetic and undeserved complex of superiority afflicting ID.

If necessity is the mother of invention then by far the most innovative (not decorative) design traditionally comes from designers who, at least at some point in their lives, experienced serious adversity, poverty and lack of resources. Consider that some of today's top Italian designers were children in postwar Italy, which was an economic basket case, to put it mildly, for decades after WWII. The same can be said for many big names in design, whether American, Japanese or Scandinavian, who came from very modest backgrounds that instilled them with a high lifelong sensibility, empathy and respect for the material needs of others. Wealth does not necessarily breed talent, ideas or even more wealth, but it most often breeds the excess, waste and irrelevance found in most "designed" products sold nowadays. A true sense of cultural belonging and continuity is far more meaningful in shaping a designer's vision than the mere abundance of products which, in any case, exists everywhere on the planet now. An original mind will work anywhere, a lazy and rather conventional one indeed needs constant stimulus from the work of others to perform.

Where emerging economies worldwide are still disadvantaged today is mostly in the access to information, latest technologies and facilities in general but if you've traveled the world and seen what comes out of engineering, design, and architecture schools from Russia to South America, you'd be stunned by the amount of natural talent, perseverance and consistent quality of work coming out of there.

Maybe you should check out grad shows and portfolios from countries not traditionally known as design hotbeds. At the very least these people are not snobs like you and that alone makes it easier for manufacturers to do business there. Your last sentence said it all.

Hopefully you speak for a minority.

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posted 12-05-2003 12:21 PM              

....and the examples of the talented engineer, are good if you refer to design as a commodity. Which is where western based designers will always lose to developing nations and cultures.

When you have a company that treats design as a proactive, engaging, and wholistic process; design does not become an expendable, mobile type service. To those companies (examples?--BMW, Apple, Microsoft, Philips, Sony, etc) a designer is not the sum total of their skill set, but the sum total of their experiences and their skill set is used to communicate that through integration of form, function and emotion. In those companies it is all about talent; and talent can be taught, and talent is 75% skill and hard work tempered with 25% personal experience.

In my experience design is more than a specific skillset, the software you know or your culture/nationality. It is not based on what you know and how you apply it but how can you learn more and apply it effectively. Design is not "a perfectly expendable, mobile type of service" to the right company or personality. If you relegate yourself to that myopic opinion of it you are shortchanging yourself, your oppourtunities and letting them take the jobs away from you.

posted 12-05-2003 01:35 PM              

Design is about both FUNCTION and FORM, the two used together make for great design. I believe Cyaxares is simply pointing out that the "FORM" in the design equation can not simply be outsourced like an IT job. Form, or "Style", is the personal element in design that levels the playing field for all designers.

posted 12-05-2003 03:59 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by hello:
I believe you all are missing Cyaxares point.

Design is about both FUNCTION and FORM, the two used together make for great design. I believe Cyaxares is simply pointing out that the "FORM" in the design equation can not simply be outsourced like an IT job. Form, or "Style", is the personal element in design that levels the playing field for all designers.

If it was only about function, it would be a boring world!

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posted 12-05-2003 04:44 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by Cy, we know it's you:
hello, I guess you're right - China, India, African countries and others have absolutely no art history or traditions, their populations are and always were visually iliterate and obviously inept at any form-giving whatsoever. All these poor countries robbed for centuries by the West never produced any sculpture, furniture, graphics, palaces, weapons and the like. What losers.

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